Calvinism Debate, Charles Doughty and Andrew Sandlin (partial transcription)


Thank you, Andrew, for giving us your TULIP patch. There was only one flower in the tulip patch, so what I would like to do is kind of tiptoe through the tulips. First of all, total depravity, and I do want to dismiss with just a few verses of scripture here that the Old Testament…you are the first person I have ever heard call yourself an Old Testament Christian. We used to call that an anomaly, but I heard it tonight. In I Peter, it talks about the people of the Old Testament being moved by the Holy Spirit as they spoke and we know that Jesus said in John 16 that the Holy Spirit had not yet come. He said after I leave, it is essential for me to leave, that I go and prepare a place for you, but he said, the Holy Spirit cannot come unless I go in John 14:26 and 15:26. So the Holy Spirit had not come. Now this New Covenant was not just to give the Holy Spirit to a few people. Yes, the Law was in the heart of David and of Isaiah. The Holy Spirit moved upon these men. There is no question there that they were authorized by the Holy Spirit to write as it says in I Peter. These prophets prophesied of the grace that would come to you and they made careful search and inquiry–the grace that would come on you in the New Testament. They didn’t have it, seeking to know what person or time the spirit of Christ within them was indicating. He was in them individually, so yes the Law was in, but only individuals, so we can’t blanket the Holy Spirit on the whole Old Testament people because He had not come yet and just because the Law was written in the heart of David doesn’t mean it was written in the whole Old Testament economy because it says here in verse 11 he predicted the suffering of Christ to come. It was real to them that they were not serving themselves, but you and these things which now have been announced to you. So the announcement of the Gospel is in the New Testament, not the old and they preached the gospel to you in prophecy, knowing that something better was yet to come. Even angels desired to look in upon the things you are hearing tonight, and the things we are preaching tonight because these angels didn’t even know. So that dismisses that without even a word further. I could mention Hebrews 1:1-2, “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son….”, so he did work in the spirit through those men. As far as total depravity is concerned, total, absolute complete depravity. Yes, depravity is in the Bible. We are wicked people, but total depravity that we cannot respond to God. Even a baby is born and the reform taught many, many times, I am sure this brother here may not mention it, maybe he does, that babies are damned to hell the day they are born because of Adam’s sin. He didn’t mention Romans, of course, that is an old passage. They say that sin passed upon all men, but in Romans 5:12 it says that death passed upon all men. I didn’t inherit Adam’s sin, I inherited his death and I will die because of Adam’s sin. Sin did not pass upon all men making them totally depraved and so the “T” here I am going to tiptoe through….Psalms 51:5, one of their favorite text doesn’t teach total depravity at all….”and in sin did my mother conceive me”. It may be interesting for you to know the search through the Old Testament that the sin that the mother committed here, the mother’s sin, in heat did my mother conceive me, the word refers to animal heat, it has nothing to do with natural conception. In fact, it is the only time that conception is ever used as animal heat. Some Jewish commentators say that David was illegitimately born and that is why he mentions “and in sin did my mother conceive me”, so that word there is not hareh, the ordinary word for conception. It is only found of animal heat and he said, “in animal heat, did my mother conceive me”. He is really lamenting the fact that life is very gloomy in his case, and David, of course, had his share of gloomy moments. In as far as the “T” part of the tulip, as I tiptoe through it tonight, He said, “suffer little children who come to me. Forbid them not to come to me; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven”, Matthew 19:14. If children were totally depraved, born that way, He would say, “set your ornery, rotten, sinful hearts to the kingdom of heaven.  I can’t picture a little baby over there in the nursery being born completely, totally depraved, rotten and completely given over to sin and that God has to perform a work of salvation on him in order for him to be saved. Ezekiel 18:20 says to the contrary, ” The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither the father bear the iniquity of the son”; therefore sin cannot be inherited. Consequences of sin can be inherited, yes. Through venereal disease you can be born blind. In Matthew 16:27 it said, “For the Son of man shall come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then shall he render every man according to his deeds.” If he is going to render to us according to our deed and He predestined us to sin, and sin, of course, is a predestined matter it is not a deliberate choice it is under His providential care, then why would he render to us according to our deeds?  But not only would we be born totally depraved, but we would also have to inherit from Adam and it would be his fault that we sinned if you carry this to its logical conclusion that in reality we are not only barren of the brunt of our own sin, but the brunt of another man’s sin, which is Adam. Peter says in his first epistle, Chapter 1:17 -“And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds….” so we just want to kind of tiptoe through that tulip there and go onto the “U”.

Notice here the next petal in the Calvinistic tulip is unconditional election and they mention here that God has elected some people to heaven and some to hell. Of course, the word election comes from the Greek word selection and it looks as though God has predestined before you were born that you were going to go to heaven or you are going to go to hell. But in the great commission, Jesus said go and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and the unbeliever shall be damned. Evidently, God selects you when you get in on the predestined plan of God, which is the preaching of the word of God, certainly was planned by God before the foundation of the world.

We also have the “L” as we tiptoe through that one. John 10:11-15 Jesus said that he died only for the limited atoned, that is only for those selected people. I use the word select, they use the word elect, but selection is the meaning of the word. He said I am the good shepherd, I lay down my life for the sheep. In verse 15, He said, “as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep”. Some would read into this that Jesus is saying that He died for the sheep only and not for anyone else. One has to strain pretty hard to come up with an interpretation like that in view of the fact that the writer of the book of Hebrews said he tasted of death for every man. The whole world was saved when Christ died. In John 3:16, it said He loved the whole world and gave his own Son, that whosoever believeth, and by the way, your name is in the Bible, it is whosoever, that is anyone who believeth. So faith is indeed, belief is indeed a very important response.

Also we have the “I” as we tiptoe through this tulip. It almost looks as if irresistible grace God is going to grab you by the nape of the neck and drag you up to heaven and you can’t even resist. One verse they use is that “no man can come to me except the Father that sent me draws him.” He used that in John 6:44 and yet the method that your God uses to draw is the gospel to the Lord Jesus Christ because he said, “and I will have you lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me. So there is a visual aide to draw. The method that God uses the gospel. In John 1:12 he said, “as many as received Him, to them gave the right to become the sons of God.” We have a right to receive Him and we have a right to reject Him.

We also have the “P” as I tiptoe through this tulip and I am just tiptoeing really because some of you need milk first and then I will give you a little beefsteak a little later on, but this is just the milk I am giving to you. In John 10:28-29 he said, “I give them eternal life, and they shall not perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” What is to keep you from leaving the Father yourself? See, it is subjective in this case. It is true, no one can take you out of God’s hand, but we know that many have. In the Bible days, even Paul said, “I buffet my body daily and bring it into bondage lest by any means after I preach to others, I myself become a castaway or a reject”. And by the way, that word reject doesn’t mean just to put on shelf and put away for a while. It used in the book of Romans, the very passage our brother used a little bit earlier as a reprobate, totally lost, Romans 1:28. Paul said I could be just like that man in Romans 1:28 if I don’t watch myself. Then over in II Timothy 3:8 it talks about Jannes and Jambres who withstood Moses and it said they were reprobate concerning the faith. It is possible for a person to become reprobate concerning the faith. In Galatians 5:4 Paul said, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. If a person goes back under the law and braces the law, then he is severed from Christ. You can’t be severed from something that you were not a part of. In Hebrews 10:26, it makes it very clear if, now there is conditionalism. Conditionalism is in the scriptures. In fact, a testament it says is a conditional matter in the book of Galatians 3 it uses the word codicil. It says there that no one can add to or add conditions to a testament in Galatians 3:15. That means that a testament has conditions in it and so that word condition (codicil) in the original Greek means that if, that is the word if or and, means that you have a choice. If you sin willfully after you receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries” Hebrews 10:26-27. If predestination was true, He would just say when, but when He says “if”, that means you have made a choice.  In II Peter 2:20 he said you have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and again you become entangled, the last state is worst than the first.  The first state is being, of course, in Christ, the last one out of Christ. It would have been better for you to have never known the way of righteousness than to turn from the holy commandment.

So I am just tiptoeing through the tulip, the perseverance of the faith here. Peter said save yourself from this crooked generation in his great sermon on the day of Pentecost. In Philippians 2:12 it said, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”, verses 12 and 13. That means that you need to accept Christ and the beloved and make God’s work your work, your passion, not something passive, but something that your watching and struggling and combating in. Because if you work out your own salvation that means that God started it, it is of God, the graces of God. God is a partner with you and he wants you to work it out. We notice also in Jude verse 21 he says, “keep yourselves in the love of God”. He says in II Thessalonians 2:10 you are saved if you keep on loving the truth. In Hebrews 3:3-5 you need to maintain a lively hope. I Peter 1:3-5 if you hold fast your confidence until the end. Jesus even said in Revelation 2:25, ” hold fast what you have, until I come”. That means you are working with God. In John 6:53 you are a partaker of Christ. You eat of Him, you drink of Him. In Philippians 3:3 you rejoice in Christ. That is something you can do. You put no confidence in the flesh. You appropriate, you complete, you realize you work out this thing with fear and trembling. In II Corinthians 6:1 it pictures a farmer working with the soil. You don’t go into the soil as a farmer and say well it is predestined to grow. They say no, its not going to grow if you don’t till the soil and work with it. They say well no, God is sovereign. After all God is the almighty sovereign. He doesn’t need you to work with it. It is His gift, it is His work. That doesn’t make good sense. It doesn’t. does it? It doesn’t make good sense in horticulture. It doesn’t make good sense in science. It doesn’t make good sense in any other field except predestination. There is where it is supposed to make sense. It is supposed to be that God is going to override human will. God is going to override everything in order to get you saved and you haven’t got one bit of responsibility at all. You haven’t got any human will at all. You are born totally depraved. You can’t do anything unless God gives it to you, unless God works it in you. In fact, you are even regenerated before you get faith. So if this thing were of God and God alone, then God would go ahead and raise the wheat, the corn, the barley and the oats.  It reminds me of the fellow who was out on the ocean and he was crying, “Help, help I am drowning” and a man came by in a boat and said, “I will help you.” He threw out his hand to him and he grabbed his hand and pulled off an artificial limb. The guy went down a second time and his leg was sticking up and he said, “Help, help”, and he pulled his leg and pulled off an artificial limb. So he got an artificial arm and an artificial leg. He came up with his hair above the water. He said, “Help, help”. He grabbed him by his hair, it was long hair, pulled it off it was a toupee. The guy came up a fourth time and he said, “Help, help, help” and the guy said, “I would if you would just cooperate”. Now I like to use humor once in a while; but if we would apply the rules of predestination to everyday life it wouldn’t make a bit of sense because God said you are husbandman. In fact, Paul says here in the book of I Corinthians 3 says we are fellow workers, fellow laborers together with Him. He says very clearly that Apollos watered and I planted and God gave the increase. There you see we are cooperating with God, we are working with God. Yes, salvation is of God. Yes indeed, God is to be God and all God. We don’t have a God-centered religion, we have a Christ-centered religion. God has designed that all authority be given to His Son in heaven and on earth and they are not in competition with each other. Again in I Corinthians the third chapter after he says Apollos watered and God gave the growth he also uses a building illustration. In verse 11-13 he said, “For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it….”. Now if God didn’t expect you to do anything, why would he say your work is going to be proven and tried in the Judgment Day and it may be burned up. This foundation we are building upon is Christ, upon the Apostle’s doctrine in Christ.

Now I have just tiptoed through this thing, but now I want to go down to the steakhouse and really bite into some things with you if you don’t mind. Over here in the book of Colossians 3:2 Paul is defending the apostolicity of the authority of the apostles. We have to have a foundation to stand upon. We can’t straddle the Old and New Testament. You do that, your legs are going to get further and further apart until you are going to fall down. My indictments against Calvinism are 1) they don’t know the difference between the old and New Covenant, 2) they don’t know when the Kingdom of Jesus Christ got started, and 3) they have no record of their salvation. They say they are predestined, but they don’t have any idea of when they got predestined. They don’t have any idea when that predestination got hold of them. They have no idea when they were saved. They have no record on earth as to when, even if they were predestined, when that predestination went into effect. These are very important indictments because they are going to affect their eternal destiny. Now hasten on here to II Corinthians 3:2:3 Paul says, “You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men; and you show that you are a letter from Christ….”. Now when he said “our letter” he is referring to other New Testament Christians. He is referring to the other apostles. He is referring to the authority of the apostles, notice that. In Chapter 3:4 he said “Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God”. That means we have reliant confidence and trust pepoithesis, which means we know what we are talking about. And then he says in verse 5, “Not that we are adequate of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our sufficiency, hikanos, which means we are of sound mind, we are sufficient, able witnesses. The word witness means we are diakonos, runners, attendants, and eyewitnesses. II Peter 1:16 said we eyewitnessed his majesty when he was transformed, when the Old Testament law vanished away and the prophets vanished away under Elijah and under Moses. God said listen to my Son, listen to Jesus and he overshadowed Him.  In II Corinthians 5:20 these apostles said we are ambassadors as though God were beseeching you through us. When we speak, God speaks and so they are saying we are adequate, we are sufficient. We are of sane and sound mind to be executors of this testament. In Acts 2:42, they continued steadfast in the Apostle’s Doctrine, not the Law of Moses. In Chapter 6:2, the apostles said we have got to write this down, we don’t have time to go out and do deacon’s work, so they ordained deacons to go to the hospital, if you please, that they might finish the word. By Acts 15:20, these apostles had the word finished to the place that they could circulate it through the whole known world of that day. In I Corinthians 3, he said take heed how you build on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, which means you only have one foundation to build upon and that these prophets spoke of these days and the apostles established these days and Christ is the chief cornerstone. The testator can alter or change or add conditions to his testament, but once he writes his last testament in any court of law I submit to you brethren, that that violates and unlaws the former testaments. If you had three or four before, the last one changes and violates the first four and renders them invalid. For us to tamper with this testament would be like Uzzah touching the sacred ark. We are not to do that. We are not to add to or subtract from any of the conditions. The indictment I have against the Calvinists they don’t know when the New Testament got started. In Acts 2:17-33, the prophets knew because Joel pointed to this and Peter on the day of Pentecost when he saw this mighty rushing wind, the Holy Spirit come to all flesh now, that everyone would know the Lord from the eldest to the least under this New Covenant. When he saw that he said, ” this is that, this is that! This is what those prophets have been talking about. This is that which Joel talked about.” They were excited and they began to set the world on fire. In Luke 24:44, Jesus said Moses and the law and the prophets spoke of these days. He expounded to them Moses and he said that repentance and remission of sins shall be preached to all nations beginning in Jerusalem. It had not been preached before until it began in Jerusalem. The word forgiveness is used in Romans 3:26 as being a Passover, a temporary suspension and the word there is not afasis but the word is parasis. It means to just turn your back on it as it says in Acts 17 God overlooked sin in those days, but now commands every man to repent. In the Old Testament, there was no complete forgiveness of sins. It was all based on Christ dying, going down into Hades and releasing the captives in that rescue operation from Adam to the thief on the cross. So, therefore, until the New Testament went into effect, there was no grace and there was no Holy Spirit. In those last days, I Peter 1:20, they knew they were living in the last days of the Old Testament, not the last days of the world, but the last days of the Old Testament. Hebrews 1:2 “but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son….”. Isaiah 2:4 it shall come to pass in the last days that God will establish his temple in the holy mountain and the law shall go forth from Jerusalem. Remember, he said in Luke 24 tarry in Jerusalem, wait for the promise of the Father and then he said repentance and remission of sin should be preached to all nations. On the day of Pentecost Peter said, “upon this rock I build my church, I give you the keys to the kingdom”. Calvinists don’t know when the kingdom was set up, but Peter knew because he had the keys. Whoever has the keys knows when the kingdom was set up, amen! Now the Calvinists will shut that door, but brothers and sisters Peter opened that door and when he opened that door, he said “Repent, and be immersed, everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”. Therefore, the Holy Spirit did come on that day to all flesh and repentance was preached that day to all flesh because he said all nations were gathered there. All the older Jews embraced the gospel first, later the Gentiles came in under Cornelius and then Paul went from the Jew to the Gentile with his absolute gospel message. We know that repentance for remission of sins did come. I am saying that the Calvinists have no record as to when they were saved on earth because you have to have something on earth in order for you to know you are having something in heaven. He said “I will bind on earth what is bound in heaven. I will loose on earth what is loosed in heaven. What was given to Peter is given to every gospel preacher. In Hebrews 9:15 he said that a testament is not enforced as long as the testator is living. In other words, the testator must die. Now brothers and sisters, you have a testator, you have a testament. You have to have both, not just the death of Christ. Yes, Jesus died, he paid it all, but without his testament, you and I are in sin. The Calvinists are not inheriting the claims. They believe that Jesus died, but when the testament is read, they have a veil over their face. You have to have the testament. In Daniel 9:27 it said that the Messiah will come in the middle of the week and that he will make oblation for all sin and he will establish a firm covenant, not like the old covenant, but a firm covenant. Jesus came with a covenant, with a testament. His death is important, but without his testament, without the apostolic executors of his estate, brothers and sisters you and I are still in our sins. It is not just a death, it is the application of the executation of his testament that saves. In Hebrews 10:9 he came to establish the second, that he might take the first away. Nothing could be clearer. The first testament was taken away. Our brother said there is nothing in the word that is new, and yet every time the word New Testament is found according to G. R. Berry it means it is new in contrast to old and worn out. In Hebrews 8:13, it says the Old Testament is like a geriatric man. He is staggering to his death. Paul lived to see that man die. He said the Old Testament is passing away and it did pass away. By the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D., the temple being destroyed, no a stone left upon it, the Old Testament was finished. Jesus said I did not come to destroy the law, Matthew 5:18, but the emphasis is on fulfill. He said, ” I fulfilled it”. Pleroma means to cram, to level to satisfy and to execute. When he fulfilled it, it was done. He did fulfill it by His perfect life and his sacrificial death and later on the day of Pentecost when the apostles began to execute this New Covenant, then it was done forever. It was fulfilled. Our brother had an appointment with me to meet with me tonight in debate. When we leave this place it is fulfilled. That means it is done, it is over with as the Old Testament is. You need to give more earnest heed to the things you have heard lest you let them slip. I am going to talk in my second session about hearing. Hearing is a wonderful thing. In Hebrews 3:24, it said all the prophets foretold these days, speaking of the last days. In Acts 3:21; Jesus had to make restitution. God owed the world regeneration and restitution to make good everything he said in the Old Testament. In Acts 3:23, he said that if you don’t heed that prophet like unto Moses, for God shall raise up among your brethren one like unto Moses, him shall ye hear, not Moses, but hear ye him. This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. It is a Christ-centered church, not a God-centered church. Sovereignty, that is not the issue. We all believe in the sovereignty of God. The question is is Jesus Christ King of kings and Lord of lords or is he not? If he is the Lord, you are going to do what he says. If he is not the Lord, then you are going to be a Calvinist. You are going to be under the old law. You are not going to know the difference between the two. You are either going to accept Jesus Christ completely, or not at all. For you to take half Old Testament and half New Testament and put it together would be like putting a new patch on an old garment. I would hate to see you walk down the street, you would rip your pants right off.  You have to put a new patch on a brand new garment. For you to take Old Testament and try to mix it with the new is like trying to put new wine in old bottles. You are going to see some go pfffff. It is going to blow up. The embarrassment of the Calvinists and the Reformers is that they are seeing this thing misapplied. They can’t apply Old Testament and New Testament together. It has to be one or the other. In Acts 4:10 there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved, Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 by His name do we do these things. I John 3:23 I command you that you believe on the name of Jesus. You say what’s the name? It is not Chalcedon; the name is not apostolic. The name is not Roman Catholic or Protestant or Jew or Methodist or Presbyterian, the name my brothers and sisters is Christian. That is the name that God gave to the world. That is the new name in Acts 11:26 that he gave, prophesied by Isaiah that they shall all see the light and they shall all come to the glory of the Lord and the Gentiles shall be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. My brother is nothing, I am nothing, John is nothing, your nothing, but Jesus Christ is everything.

My brothers and sisters, in I Peter 4:14 it said that if you are reviled by the name of Jesus then you should rejoice, because if you are reviled for the name of Jesus, then you have great honor. So we have so much evidence here that the New Covenant is superior to the old. It is so overwhelming, so overwhelming. It would be better off if we just had one verse, maybe they would believe it because there is so much here.  In other words, this New Covenant (in the Old Testament it was called Berith) which means a contractual cutting. In Genesis 15, a contract, a compact where you would pass between the parts of the body that were cut open. That is what a covenant means. It was unilateral, but it was conditional. There was always an “if” attached to it and conditions were put upon it. The biggest lie ever told is in Exodus 24:3 when God said I am the Lord your God. I delivered you out of bondage, have no other gods but me and they said everything you say, we are going to do. That is the biggest lie that was ever told because in Chapter 32:28, 3,000 of them perished and died because they violated the first commandment of idolatry. But brothers and sisters, in Acts 2:36 when the Holy Spirit came and the apostles preached the New Covenant, 3,000 people said, “What must we do”, and they meant it. They didn’t lie. They told the truth because 3,000 people were added to the church. The day of Pentecost means 50 days after the Passover. It was exactly at that time at Mt. Sinai, 50 days after they left Egypt that they told that lie and 3000 died. It was exactly 50 days after Jesus died that Peter announced his testament for the first time as he opened the door of the Kingdom of God and 3,000 people were saved. Is that a coincidence? 3,000 died-the old law given, 3,000 saved-the new law given. Is that a coincidence or do you see the light tonight?

Now in order to have a covenant, you have to have a king. You have to have a contractual cutting. You have to have reciprocity. You have to have witnesses. You have to have a reading. You have to have a fellowship. You have to have an eating and drinking ceremony. They always had that with a covenant and you have to have an examination. So on the day of Pentecost, what did they do? They had a contract. God, through Jesus’ broken body said this is my covenant with you and God passed through that body to come to us. We have to pass through that body to go back to him. You see it is a reciprocal thing. In Luke 7:29, when John came with baptism in the river Jordan, and by the way, they immersed him, they went down into the water and they came out of the water. There has got to be an into and out of in order to have a baptismos. Baptiso means to go into. It means to immerse, to dip, and to plunge and they went into it. It said they did it to justify God. Yes that is what it said, Luke 7:29-30. Those that would not justify God were not being immersed, so it is a matter of justifying God. God justifies us, yes, but when we were baptized, we justify God. We are saying I agree. I will accept the conditions of your covenant. You see all this grace and some of the things he said are security, that is all true, but it is in covenant. Outside of covenant there is no grace. Outside of covenant there is no hope, there is no security. If you are in covenant, God has pressed himself to you to keep you. That is why it says in Act 2:42 they continued steadfast in the apostle’s doctrine, in the fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in prayer. They wanted to stay in this covenant of apostolic teaching, and they did. To the contrary, the Jew did not continue in covenant, therefore, he did not inherit the Promised Land. And then examination, it said that you trod the blood of Jesus under your feet and you despite the covenant where you are sanctified. Well, brothers and sisters, if the blood has sanctified you, and then you despite it, don’t tell me you can’t be saved, and then be lost if you turn from that holy covenant. It would be like trodding the blood of an animal under your feet, which was forbidden under the old law. In II Corinthians 3:6-17, he makes it very clear. II Corinthians 3:1 Paul said, “Are we beginning to commend ourselves again?” He said you are our epistles in verse 2. He goes on to say in verse 6 that we are manifest epistles and we are able ministers of the New Testament. Not of the Old Testament, but of the spirit for the letter kills. That is the Old Testament. In verse 7, he said the administration of death, that is the Old Testament written and engraved in stone. It was glorious, so glorious that they couldn’t even look upon the face of Moses. In verse 8 he said, “will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendor?” He goes on to say if the administration of condemnation, the Old Testament, is a condemnation administration, much more the administration of the New Covenant righteousness. For even that which was made glorious had not glory in this respect by reason of the glory that surpasses it. Verse 11 says, “For that which is done away, done away, done away was glorious much more that which remains”, that is the New Testament. The Old Testament letter served death; the New Testament letter serves life. And then it goes on to say in verse 18, “and we all with open faces, behold the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory; even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”  We behold the image of the Lord’s glory in the New Covenant mirror. Calvinist Reformers who reject exclusive New Covenant Christianity must turn to the Lord Jesus, the king of this covenant, so that veil can be removed. The veil to us is the same as it was to Judaism and refusal to accept the annulment of the old law. When an individual Jew or Judaizing Gentile accepts the absolute kingship of Christ, the veil is removed. When the Jew read the Old Testament, his veil kept him from seeing the glory of the throne of Christ, for Christ is on the throne of David. He is there and shall reign until all enemies are under his footstool. When Judaists and Gentiles read the New Covenant, that same veil remains on their face. When in the New Testament he sees the glory of the Lord Jesus, not God the Father, that is not the question. The question centers in Jesus. Charismatics want the Holy Spirit to be the figurehead. Liberals and Humanists want God to be the head. But those who are truly Christians want Christ to be the head of all and God has declared him the head of all, then the Spirit will transform us from glory unto glory.

The remnant, there is always a remnant who accept God’s will. They will accept New Covenant preaching, in Revelation 8:1-5, and New Covenant Praying and God employs this method to illuminate the world for its preservation. If Christians are elected to government office, what light and moral influence they bring will help shape a better secular world. If it means enacting laws based on Moses, then so be it. May the world be a better place for it. I don’t know that we can advocate stoning homosexuals or stoning disobedient children, maybe some of you would thing that would be good, but that is what is said. But in respect to the invisible kingdom of Christ, that politician by a far greater law than he knows his comrades in office fail to understand and that is the law of the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, that through the shedding of the blood of the New Testament. No earthly law can do that. That is the law that we live under, the law of the new spirit and the law of the New Covenant. God has established the second that he might abolish the first, the old. Why doesn’t this law work when we try to apply it to the sinful world or to the church? Acts 15 tells us it is burdensome. It also said that the New Covenant commandments are not burdensome, I John 5:3 says that. We know his commandments are not burdensome. The apostles knew how to change the world. I Thessalonians 1:5-8 called it the traditions of the apostles. He said if you apply these, you can change your life and by being a city on the hill, you can change the world. You don’t need the Law of Moses. All you have to do is lead a Christian life.  You know I saw a guy the other day that said “Honk If You Love Jesus”. Brothers and sisters, it is a little bit different than that. Just live a Christian life if you love Jesus and people will see that. Granted, the world can change some for the better through legislation, but the apostles proved the divine method in illumination through the living word of Christ preached and practiced and lived will change the world. Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away, but my words shall never pass away. All scripture is given by inspiration including the New Testament. In I Corinthians 2:6-10 God made it abundantly clear that the New Testament spirit and the New Testament life is greater than the old and God speaks through his son. He said, “Here is my Son, listen to him, Here is my Son, listen to him. I am speaking through my Son. I will tell you this brothers and sisters, why he didn’t destroy the reading of the Old Covenant, the New Testament…(new tape, missing text) understands the Old Covenant better than the Jew himself because he understands the spirit and the prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament. Illumination, not legislation but illumination, that is what changes the world. Do not say the New Testament is not enough. We insult the apostolic executors of this New Covenant for every one of you and there competence. Creed writing did not originate because of some built-in deficiency of the apostolic writings. It came out through the murdering of the evangelistic witness. They killed off every preacher of the New Covenant in order to establish a monarchial bishop. The bishop began to have contempt for the preaching of the word of God and instead of having the New Testament being preached, they began to turn to creeds like their archetypal father, Antiochus Epiphanes. He raged against the Old Covenant commandments (Daniel 11:30), and even turned the covenant people against the covenant, so the mystery of lawlessness (II Thessalonians 2:7) occurred shortly after the apostles died. They said after my departure grievous woes will come in, not sparing, under Satanic attacks not even sparing you, trying to subject you to the Old Testament. They called them Judaizers. The removal of the New Covenant from God’s people lead to the elevation of bishops and the writing of creeds so that they, not Christ, could get the glory for orthodoxy. Now according to this, brothers and sisters, this Total Depravity, Exodus 25 doesn’t teach Total Depravity, it simply teaches the consequences of sin. In Romans 5:12, we inherit not sin, but we get death from our father Adam. In Romans 3:10, it is written there is none that understand, no not one. This is all personal. Write Total Depravity in the scripture and you will see how much nonsense it makes. You can’t say that these people are totally depraved. They are sinners by choice. In Chapter 58 of Psalms that our brother read, he didn’t read far enough. He said that from my mother’s womb, but the next verse he said I have gone astray. So he wasn’t born that way, he went astray. Yes, young kids can go astray awfully early, but that passage teaches it was an individual choice. In Romans 8:5-8 and Galatians 5:16, we don’t inherit evil desires. The fact is that we can mind the things of the spirit or we can mind the things of the flesh. This devastates Total Depravity because it is the mind that has been darkened in Romans 1:28. It is a personal choice of man. So the passage that a Calvinist says teaches Total Depravity under scrutiny and careful examination we will show you from every one of those passages you will see that the sin in those passages was a personal choice, not something imposed upon them against their will. Also, Total Depravity is the basis of all lies. I believe that from Total Depravity we have all these denominations teaching such things as infant regeneration, infant baptism, sacerdotalism, confirmation, immaculate conception, bodily assumption, Purgatory, Limbo, mourner’s bench, altar salvation, Grace alone, Faith alone. Our brother mentioned we are saved b faith alone. That is only found in the Bible one time in James and he said you are not saved by faith alone. The word faith doesn’t mean just an abstract, metaphysical thinking, faith means from the word pisteuo, it means to be persuaded upon evidence. When the New Testament is presented and the veil falls, the Veil of Tradition and the Veil of Prejudice falls, you are persuaded by the evidence that is presented. God never expected you to have a blind faith, but to be persuaded upon evidence given us. Calvinists say that God gives grace and then He gives the Law. Lutherans say God gives the law to convict, and then He gives grace. Neither one of these groups understand the testament or the covenant. They don’t understand that we have Arminianism over here-works, then we have Calvinism over here-grace, but in the middle we have covenant and that covenant that God gave to us is where the grace comes and that is the faith that we have to have, the persuasion, pisteuo. In fact, if you look at the word faith, you will find in every passage in the Greek dictionary, it means to be persuaded upon evidence presented. We don’t have a Total Hereditary Depravity taught in Judaism or in Christianity. In the book of II Esdras 4:30 we have it taught by the Syrians. Greek philosophy taught fatalism and it taught Total Hereditary Depravity, but the apostles never taught it. You will not find it in the Bible, you won’t find Total Depravity there, you will not find unconditional election there, you won’t find limited atonement, and you will find atonement there, but not limited atonement. You will not find perseverance of the saints anywhere, you will find saints there, but you will find they continue steadfast there, but you won’t find the expression “perseverance of the saints”. You see, it is a philosophy. It is not theology. It is a philosophy. That veil of philosophy must fall like a veil from the face in order for us to see that Christ is making a plea through his covenant and that we can accept or reject that covenant based upon our own volition. What came from Adam in Romans 5:12 and I Corinthians 15:21, if you substitute Total Depravity, in Adam we are totally depraved, why it would be senseless, but if we lost in Adam through no act of our own, we regain in Christ through no act of our own, then it makes a whole lot of sense. Death, not sin, came from Adam; Life, not death, comes from the second Adam. Just read the whole passage. Again I say that David was not born in sin, but that his mother conceived him it says in yacham, “animal heat”.

Now the Covenant Agreement. If you read here in Ephesians 3:2 Paul said I have given you the dispensation of grace. That is oikonomos. That word means that I have given you a system of grace. It comes to you in a covenant. Oikonomos means a covenant or stewardship. In Acts 13:43 it said they continued in His grace. In Matthew 5:48, we are perfected in this grace. In Ephesians 1:4 we are perfected in His grace. In Acts 2:40 when they presented the New Testament for the first time, they said save yourselves from this wicked generation and God also saves us by grace, but grace and obedience have always gone together. In Joshua 6:4, he said walk around the walls of the city of Jericho seven times and they did and the walls fell down. That is grace, by far that is grace. The walls fell down through no effort of their own, but had they not walked around the city would the walls have fallen down? You see there is grace and obedience together and I will show that to you a little bit later in my message. But then it said they came to the city and they inherited groves that they hadn’t planted and cities that they hadn’t built. That is grace. But if they hadn’t marched into the city and declared war against the Canaanites, brothers and sisters that grace would never have come. Ezekiel spoke of this covenant of peace in Ezekiel 34:25. Physical Israel had broken covenant. They had even coveted death, Isaiah 28:15. They made a covenant with death and they got it through judgment, they got it through siege, through sword, through desolation, through a chain and through gloom. But God would have a remnant as he did then, so does he now. Physical Israel had broken covenant. They coveted death, but in Hebraisms in Chapter 37:15-28 he said a New Covenant will be established, a spiritual nation will be established (I Peter 2:4-10), and congregations of the kingdom of Jesus Christ will be established and they will keep my covenant. Three chapters later we see dead Israel resurrected by preaching the New Covenant (Ezekiel). It is a prophecy of the New Covenant where these dry bones lived. In Acts 2:20 those dry bones did live, 3000 Israelites were saved. They received the Holy Spirit. Ezekiel 37:14 said they would. They would unite the Gentiles. Verses 15-21 later on all Gentiles came into the church. They would be one Kingdom and they would have one king (John 10:16) and they would follow one authoritative doctrine Chapter 37:23. I am saying that in the Old Covenant you have a prophecy and in the New Covenant you have a fulfillment and once it is fulfilled, it is finished.






Most of the things that he rebutted me I addressed him in the first session, although I do want to make comment that I did not say that you are saved by faith alone, it was James who said that. In James 2:26 he said that man is not saved by faith alone. So I didn’t say it, James said it. I do want to mention real swiftly here that he just confirmed something that I have assumed all along that the Calvinists do not know the difference between the old and new law. They don’t know where the old comes to a close and the new begins and they do not have a record of their salvation. If they were predestined they wouldn’t know when. Of course, the hyper Calvinists and some of the primitive Calvinists among the Baptist say you have to have an experience, so if you have a good experience you can say well I have been predestined to be saved. My respectful and honorable opponent believes in infant paideuo baptism and that is your salvation, so to speak, when you are baptized as a baby. They call it spiritual circumcision or the seal of the New Testament being baptism fulfilling the seal of the Old Testament being circumcision. I adamantly deny that. The right of circumcision of given in Genesis 17:12. It was to be done to every male child. No female was ever circumcised. Fleshy circumcision was to give way to spiritual circumcision according the Philippians 3:3. In Acts 7:51; the Jews were circumcised in flesh. Stephen said you are not circumcised in your ears and your heart and if you broke covenant of circumcision, you were cut off, that is how important it was in the Old Testament, but it was abolished (Ephesians 2:11, Colossians 3:11. It was abolished. The Old Testament fleshy circumcision was given to the precious seed of Abraham, Genesis 12. It was mediated by Moses, Deuteronomy 5:5. It was physical, fleshy, national, and local.  In the Old Testament it entitled people to blessings, but not like the blessings of the New Testament, especially beyond the grave. They were gathered to their fathers. The Old Testament was negative, thou shall not. Keeping the Ten Commandments, which Jesus said were not enough because he said, “I say to you….”, so it is not enough just to not to commit adultery, to look upon a woman and to lust. God said listen to my Son, not Moses. If you just listened to Moses and kept the Ten Commandments, the Ten Commandments won’t keep you out of hell. The Ten Commandments would keep the laws of man, but they certainly wouldn’t help you keep the laws of God. The law is not enough. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus says that we shouldn’t even be angry with our brother. Jesus is showing that his authority supercedes that of Moses. Of course, when we are baptized into Christ, there is an association with circumcision according to Colossians 2:12. The seal of the New Testament is not circumcision; it is the Holy Spirit. The Reformers and Restorers used to debate this years ago. The Reformers hardly ever talk about it any more because that was settled a long time ago on the battlefield of doctrine when the Reformers and Restorers met and the Reformers realized that the seal of the New Testament is not circumcision. It is the Holy Spirit and baptism does make the way for the Holy Spirit to come, yes. Baptism is the induction into Christ. It is covenantal, yes indeed it is.  (changed tape-lost dictation)  is to enter into salvation and to have their sins washed away would be to make water salvation. It would be water regeneration. Equating Christian baptism with spiritual circumcision is one of the most gracious fallacies that have ever been perpetrated on the Christian world. Baptism is an act of faith, is an appeal for a good conscience toward God (I Peter 3:21). It is an appeal for a pledge, a covenantal pledge for a good conscience from God, or it is nothing. Baptism is nothing without personal faith, which a baby cannot have. Baptism is nothing without personal repentance, which a baby cannot have. Baptism is nothing without hearing the word of God, which a baby cannot do, for it said, “They heard the word and were baptized”. Baptism is nothing unless there is a change of heart. Spiritual circumcision is the excision of the body of the guilt of sin by the entrance of the Spirit into the human life. It is something that God does. When you are baptized, it is God who performs spiritual circumcision upon the heart. Baptism associates and allows God to do it, and you have a record. If you are not baptized, there is no record on earth that God ever circumcised your heart. Absolutely none at all. You can say you are predestined till the day you die, but you have no record. [I John 5:8-9 said there is a record in heaven, the Father, the word, the Holy Spirit, the Trinity if you want to call it that, I call it the Godhead. He said on earth, it is the water and the blood and the Spirit. That water is not word for in John 3:22-23 it says they were baptized near Aenon where there was much water. So whatever water meant in John 3:5, it meant in John 3:23. Much water. It said they went down into the water. Now how can you sprinkle water on a baby’s head and call that immersion into Christ. And then they came up out of the water. You have to have a line of demarcation. There was a baptism in the Old Testament, it was a prototype. The Old Testament was nothing but a picture of things to come, the gospel was preached only as a preview. To say that they were Old Testament Christians. Again, it is just an anomaly. It is like calling them heavenly doubles. Now when they came to the Red Sea, they were under the leadership of Pharaoh. Pharaoh was their master, they were in slavery. They went into the sea, they were baptized in the cloud, overwhelmed by the cloud. Metaphorically, you have to go into and come out of, I don’t care what it is. You have to go into the river and be metaphorically immersed in the cloud and the wall of water around you. Jesus metaphorically was immersed in sorrow. He said, I have a baptism to be baptized with, which he was immersed in sorrow. Jesus went into the tomb (sun fu tomas?) which means he went into the tomb and came out of the tomb. You go into the water, you come out of the water. That is not spiritual circumcision, which is your record when you come out of that water. It is not coincidentally called the Red Sea, by the way, because it stands for the blood of Jesus Christ that will be shed. When you come out of that, you are spiritually circumcised. God operates on your heart. It is not a work of man. Baptism is a gift of grace; it is not spiritual circumcision. To baptize a baby is water regeneration, is it not? You have salvation in a bucket of water. The baby has no idea of what is going on. He doesn’t have faith, he doesn’t have repentance. Who is making the covenant. You have a parent predestine in order to predestine the baby. As far as predestination is concerned what about Satan? If Satan is the original sinner, not Adam, Satan is. He was created innocent, wasn’t he? It says in the book of Ezekiel that he was created innocent and sin was found in him, and that is a recapitulation of the human race. Satan was not created evil. If Satan was created evil, then God is not only the author of evil, he is the creator of evil, but He created Satan with a freewill. Satan chose to sin by choice, did he not? Just as you did one day and we don’t know when that day was, but when you sinned, then you became a prospect for grace. Where your sin abounded, grace much more. To identify per se baby sprinkling, which is not immersion, it is not baptizo, it is wrong tizo, and Spiritual circumcision is the best in the ordinance of the Calvinistic denomination. It is to invest in the water itself, magical properties. Salvation in a bucket. It was Tertullian who wanted to get pagan babies into the church, who had a pagan practice by pagan fathers and mothers of sprinkling these children or baptizing these children. The efficacy is not in the water, it is not in the child. There is no warrant for such an esoteric concept as bringing salvation in a bucket of water. It unscriptural, it is antiscriptural and it is non-scriptural. For a candidate to reply to the covenant itself by saying what must I do to be saved? When they said to Peter, “what must I do to be saved according to the terms of the covenant?” Peter didn’t say you are predestined to be saved or lost. There is nothing you can do Jesus did it all. He didn’t say that, did he? Because he knew that with death there was a covenant. If you read in the book of Hebrews, he said that with the death of the testator, the covenant goes into effect. My brother goes to Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. I call him my brother by creation and he may be my brother by immersion, if he is not immersed, he is not my brother, but he may be, I don’t know if he knew what he was doing when he was immersed into Christ. I call him my brother by creation because I love him and he could be my potential brother if he would be born again according to the terms of the New Testament and have a record, which he doesn’t have now. I love him dearly and I am not here to discuss the rightfulness or the wrongfulness of he and me. I am here for truth. The Holy Spirit can only incorporate truth into your mindset. Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God and when they cried out what must we do to be saved, he told them they could do something to be saved, and that was repent and be immersed. In Hebrews 9 it says very clearly that without the death of a testator, there can be no covenant. It said Jesus offered the blood of the eternal spirit, verse 14. The Holy Spirit., of course, has been around along time, he is eternal. He is the mediator of a New Covenant, verse 15.  Since a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions that were committed under the first covenant. Even they, under the first covenant had to be saved by Christ dying on the cross. They didn’t have to be baptized into Christ because they were saved by faith and prospect and by grace. There is no salvation outside of the grace of God, but when Jesus died, his blood was applied to those in the Old Testament. It said he descended into the depths and he went into the Hadean world. He who ascended is the same that descended and gave gifts to men. He preached to the saints in prison, so all of those people were waiting for him to come. Abraham rejoiced to see this day and it is talking about the day that Christ would come and visit him. For where a


covenant is, there must be out of necessity be the death of the testator. If he goes to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they are before the death of the testator. To make a big case for doctrine, he is going to have to come after the death of the testator, is that not true? I want the inheritance, not just the death. If your great uncle dies and leaves you a million bucks, it doesn’t mean a thing to you. You better find out who your executors are. I have executors, Peter, Andrew, James, John, Phillip and Bartholomew and all the rest. I even have the apostle Paul to throw in to boot. I want to know who my executors are. This covenant is only valid when a man dies. When Jesus was alive, he could give salvation personally to anyone he wanted to. After he died, the covenant went into effect, and now the conditions, according to the Galatian letter Chapter 3:15, go into effect

Now here are the conditions and it all starts with one thing, and that is hearing. Hear O Israel, the word of God. Now in my manuscript back there, and if you don’t have them, send for them, we will send them to you free of charge. I spent a lot of work on those 25-page manuscripts of everything I  was supposed to have said tonight, so read it. Hear O Israel, the word of God. Spiritual Israel, physical Israel. It said in Hebrews 5:14 that you discern and in verse 14, strong meat belongs to them that are full aged, those who by reason of use of their senses to discern both good and evil. You have tasted of the good word to come. Now Paul speaks of the bible as food for mature disciples who by reason, which means through the channel of the word coming through. Now when I talk about predestination I am talking about God’s plan to sow the seed so that Jew and Gentile can have a predestined plan, whereby they can be saved. In this predestined plan, goes all the way back to the garden, the seed of the woman and the seed of the devil, and that seed has to be sewn, you have to hear it. The organ of perception is to be exercised, that is where we get the word “gym”. It means to work hard, like a gymnast. You are to discern judicially what you are hearing to judge its rightfulness, to scrutinize. I Corinthians 2:14 said you examine, investigate, interrogate God’s word. In Hebrews 4:12, you reason in the scriptures. Now if you are predestined, why is God telling you to do that. He said you have an ear to hear. In Hebrews 4:12, you have a built-in organ of perception and apprehension. Not just the ear, it can be circumcised. You have to uncircumcise the ear. I want to say this to my brother here. Who is responsible for the use of your ear? You can answer this if you wish or you don’t have to. You, God or would you like to remain silent on that one. (Mr. Sandelin) No, I will answer it. (Mr. Doughty) So he who has ears, let him hear. Man uses his ears, but God makes the ears, that is the answer.


5 Minute Rebuttal


That  Ephesians passage that is talking about salvation, if you read it grammatically, you will notice that it is not talking about faith. Your salvation is a gift from God and also you will notice that the kingdom of God was not open to the Old Testament people. Jesus said of John the Baptist, “of him who is born of woman there is no greater, but he who in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist”. He told his disciples in Mark 9, “You will not taste of death until you see the kingdom of God come with power. That means either the kingdom of God came on the day of Pentecost, or we have 2000-year-old apostles sitting around waiting for it to come, so they did see the kingdom come on the day of Pentecost. We also have Paul talking about it in Acts 19. He said, “Feed the church of God over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers through which Jesus purchased with his blood”, so the church could never have been purchased until Jesus shed his blood. We need to know when the kingdom was set up, when the church was established in order for us to have a church in order to be a part of. Now notice in Galatians 2:4, the Judaizers came in and spied out this liberty. The wanted an Old Testament in Galatians 2:4. In Galatians 2:16, he said no flesh will be justified by the law, no flesh. So those under the old law were not justified. Galatians 2:18 he said, “But if I build up again those things which I tore down, then I prove myself a transgressor.” It is a transgressor that tried to rebuild the Old Testament law, verse 18. Verse 21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose”. If I even say to you today that you can be righteous through keeping the law or were even part of it, then I would nullify, destroy and frustrate the grace of God. In Chapter 3, he said that the Holy Spirit comes through the hearing of faith, which is akouo, hearing. Akouo means to obey upon hearing. In fact, it is used in “obey your parents”. It literally means hear your parents, what they say and obey what you hear. So the word hupakouo and epakouo are the words used for hearing the word of God. Always obey what you are hearing. That is your responsibility. God didn’t obey for you. If God obeyed for you what he told you to do, then he would be saving himself. How can God save himself by doing for you what you have to do for yourself? It comes through the hearing, actually hupakouo, hearing of the faith and this faith is wrapped up with the word peitho, which means the persuasion of the whole New Testament, Chapter 3:8. The scripture foresees that God will justify the Gentiles. He talks about the gospel being preached beforehand, but that was foreseeing. He didn’t read it all, verse 8. The gospel was preached in preview. Now here we have, I am going to build a building here, there is the Abrahamic faith, Abraham obeyed what he heard and was imputed him for righteousness because everything God told him to do. He said get out, he did. Then 430 years later, we have this little thing called the Old Testament law, then we have the New Testament on the same level as the Abrahamic faith. OK, so picture in your mind two blocks, here is Abrahamic faith, here is our Christian faith. We are saved the same way Abraham was. Hearing, obeying what we hear, and we are justified by imputed righteousness and faith. Those that want the law to be in here, bring the law up here, put down the Abrahamic faith, put down the New Testament and want us to return to the law and that is what Paul said we can’t do in Chapter 3:10. “For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” So anyone who even indicates. I don’t want that to be under a curse, do you? Then he goes on in Chapter 3:15 “To give a human example, brethren: no one annuls even a man’s will, or adds to it, once it has been ratified.” So the law that Jesus gave in the New Testament, his covenant is once and for all. You can’t add one thing to it. Verse 19, the old law was a shadow. It was ordained because of transgressions, ordained by angels. It was good, it was holy, but it was only temporary, he said that, until the seed comes, Chapter 4:25-26, “Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free…” Sinai below is in bondage. The law of Sinai puts people in bondage. The Muslims claim Abraham as their father. The Muslims are in bondage and this corresponds to the Muslims. We don’t want to be Muslim Christians. It is true that Calvin murdered witches, he murdered people, he murdered Servertius. He wanted to murder Hugo Grottius. He had many people put to death. They use the same mindset as the Muslims do, that if they are heretics, kill them. Servertius didn’t believe in the Trinity. Calvin wanted to have him beheaded, but they burnt him at the stake. So you see, this law genders to bondage and it doesn’t foster love, it fosters anything but love and Calvinism, and I want to say this as I walk away, the whole issue of Calvinism rises and falls upon whether we are under the authority of Christ or under the authority of Moses.


Questions and Answers


Let’s pick up the questions and have the men bring them forward and we will go right into the question and answer time with the 2-minute clock. I am going to ask Samuel Redfern from the Homeschool Legal Defense Association if he will govern the 45-minute period. We will just have each one respond from their tables, will that be ok? The first question is addressed to Andrew.


Andrew, is at least one reason Charles has to assume Proverbs 13:10 that one could lose his salvation because while he believes the cross makes the experience of baptism by water effectual, his focus is so centered on water baptism, he misses that all who believe were crucified with Christ at Calvary.


ANDREW:  Did it say Proverbs 13:10?


JOHN:  Proverbs 13:10. Let me read that again. Is not at least one reason Charles has to assume (Proverbs 13:10) that one could lose his salvation because while he believes the cross makes the experience of baptism by water effectual, his focus is so centered on water baptism, he misses that all who believe were crucified with Christ at Calvary. Galatians 2:20


ANDREW: Yea, good point. Romans 6 I think makes that quite clear. We certainly do believe baptism is very, very important. We believe you can be saved without baptism. Chuck disagrees with me on this. We believe it is a sign and seal of the Covenant of Grace, we believe the book of Romans teaches that. It is very important, but of course the thief on the cross, as far as we know, was not baptized, and yet he was converted. We don’t hold a common evangelical view that baptism is merely some sort of memorial, it is somehow secondary, it is somehow just some sort of public act that I will follow Jesus. We actually believe that it seals to us the benefits of salvation, but we don’t believe in baptismal regeneration or baptismal salvation. I think you can place too much emphasis on the baptism itself, I think that is very common. That is where we disagree, by the way, with Lutherans. Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration of infants and of adults. I don’t think that Chuck holds to baptismal regeneration of adults. He can clarify that, but that is not the Reformed position and I don’t have longer than now to go into that in detail, but yea, I agree with the thrust of the question.


CHARLES:  I think I have failed miserably because I have expounded for the last hour and a half on why I believe the Old Testament is nullified by the New and I talked to you about when the New Testament went into effect. The thief on the cross died before the Day of Pentecost. He died before; I don’t even know why people bring up the thief on the cross? I don’t know why? Why don’t they bring up Adam, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? It makes not difference if you died a thousand years before Jesus’ testament went into effect, or whether you died 5 hours before it went into effect, when the testament went into effect, that is when baptism became valid. It is the covenant that gives the form of baptism its meaning, not you. It is the covenant that gives it its significance. It is not salvation in a bucket of water like infant baptism. Baptism is where Christ performs spiritual circumcision on you and it is his gift to you. It is like an external handle from heaven, for you have to have on earth in time, which you have in eternity where there is no time. You have to have it as a gift. It is his gift. For anyone to insult it and slight it doesn’t even deserve to be saved because it is God’s gift to show you in time a record. You have a record on earth, the water, the blood and the spirit. When you are immersed you have water. It is there that the blood of Christ washes your sins away. It is there that you are spiritually circumcised. It is there that you are predestined by the way to receive the whole plan that God gave to you, so if you are the man, you are predestined in the plan, is that not true? So you got in on the plan, right? It is there that you received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The water, the blood and the Spirit. The Spirit is not going to come in until sins go out. You have to know on earth when your sins were forgiven. Three thousand people, which said received the word and they were immersed. Gladly received the word and were immersed. It wasn’t a question of well should we do it or not. I don’t thing we are going to do it. You see, to reject the testament is tantamount to rejecting the testator. You reject the ambassador; you reject the king who sent him. To reject Peter is to reject Jesus Christ, because Peter was speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he told us to repent and be baptized. You are walking on mighty risky ground if you refuse that.


JOHN:  Question for Mr. Doughty. If we believe in the New Testament doctrine only, then what use is the Old Testament for doctrine to the Christian? How can the Ten Commandments be the laws of man, since they were given by God. What use is the Old Testament for doctrine to the Christian?


CHARLES: The Ten Commandments is a good law to govern the world by, but it is a poor law to govern God’s people by because we walk in the Spirit and to walk in the Spirit is to go beyond. It would be superfluous to tell a man walking in the Spirit to love his neighbor because we know we should love our neighbor. We are going to go beyond the love of our neighbor. We are going to help our neighbor. We are going to take what we have to help and assist him beyond love. We can’t even love God in the Old Testament like Jesus could. Jesus said love the Father, as I loved you. How can an Old Testament Jew love God the Father as Jesus loved him? So you see, we have a whole new interpretation of that law. Now as far as the Old Testament, we love it, we preach it; we wouldn’t know a thing about creation if it weren’t for the book of Genesis. We wouldn’t know a thing about the human family if it weren’t for what God had joined together let no man put asunder. The monogamous relationship of a husband and wife and raising the children and obedience of children, but Paul said these were examples unto us upon whom the end of the ages come. They are examples to us. They are not the laws to live by, but they are examples.. Examples to us, Old Testament examples of what happens when you disobey God and what happens when you do obey him. You have pictures of Jesus. If you want to learn about the detailed death of Christ on the cross, don’t read Matthew 26, 27, and 28, read Psalms 22. You can’t have the shepherd of Psalms 23 until you have the Savior of Psalms 22.


…see the horrible death. Psalms 88 all of that is a preview of his death. We read that, we love that. We are talking about authority, however. If we are under the old law, then we are going to have Sabbath day worship, we are going to have to have animal sacrifices, and we are going to have to have a Priesthood. We are going to have to look around for Aaron and his children and the Levites and everything else. Thank God we are not under that burden. It was a burden that even they could not bear, the apostles concluded.


JOHN: I will repeat the question. If we believe in the New Testament doctrine only, then what use is the Old Testament for doctrine to the Christian? How can the Ten Commandments be the laws of man, since they were given by God? What use is the Old Testament for doctrine to the Christian?


ANDREW:  Chuck says that the Old Testament is only an example, well that is not what Paul said. II Timothy 3:16 All scripture, not just the New Testament, which wasn’t even written, “all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for doctrine-Old Testament doctrine for the church-for reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly or completely furnished for every good work. The man of God cannot perform his ministry unless he has the authority of the Old Testament behind him. The Ten Commandments – well Jesus confirmed in Matthew 5. He said we are lead by the Spirit. Spirit-lead homosexuality, oh no we don’t believe that. Why not? Well you say the Spirit wouldn’t tell us that. The Spirit can say all sorts of things. People say, well the Holy Spirit wouldn’t truly say that. That is right. We believe in following where the Spirit speaks. I think all of us here believe in following exactly what the Holy Spirit says, and we have it, it is right there, right there. The entire word of God. All scripture is given by inspiration of God. He said we wouldn’t know about creation except from the Old Testament. Wrong! Jesus confirmed the creation in the New Testament, so we would know about it from both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Yes, some of the Old Testament law has been done away, but God has to tell us that. Our little peon brains don’t say, “well I don’t like the Old Testament law”. God has got to tell us, and he has told us. The Old Testament sacrifices have, indeed, been done away and been fulfilled in Christ. Specific Old Testament Jewish festivals, because now we have the multinational Church of Jesus Christ, but the specific Old Testament revelation not specifically set aside binds the people of God. We don’t always understand it. You can pull out some text right now that says how are going to do that? You know what I am going to honestly say? I don’t understand. I don’t know because I am weak and I am sinful, but who am I to dictate to the sovereign God that his word does not bind me. I can’t do that. I am bound to the law of God. I will stop there.


JOHN: To Andrew Sandelin. If the Old Testament is alive and vibrant today, how do you explain Hebrews 8:13? See verse below – Hebrews 8:13 they have written out. “By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” You mentioned if man is born sinless, it would be possible for a child to be born and not sin his entire lifetime. I thought his name was Jesus Christ.


ANDREW: What, did I only use the term Jesus or rather Christ? OK, I will read it. Two-part question I guess. Can I just read it and then we can give it to Chuck, that is fine. Hebrews 8:13 the New Covenant is the covenant of, I am going to have to read that one, won’t I? The New Covenant is the covenant of salvation in the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is passing away to everyone who believes, and that is the teaching of the book of Hebrews. It has nothing to do with the Old Testament. It has to do with the Old Covenant. If you are here and you are converted, the Old Covenant has been destroyed in your life and you are a New Covenant believer, but unfortunately, there are a lot of Old Covenant people walking out there. They need to hear the gospel and need to be saved. It is becoming obsolete to all who are truly converted, and that, I believe is the message of Hebrews. I didn’t quite grasp the second one. If man is born sinless, it would be possible for a child to be born and not sin his entire lifetime. I said that that would be theoretically possible under the scheme that I believe that Chuck was setting forth. I thought his name was Jesus Christ? It is, his name is the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not sure how that relates to the question, but I will stop there.


JOHN: If the Old Testament is alive and vibrant today, how do you explain Hebrews 8:13? See verse below – Hebrews 8:13 they have written out. “By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” You mentioned if man is born sinless, it would be possible for a child to be born and not sin his entire lifetime. I thought his name was Jesus Christ.


CHARLES: The Old Testament passed away. It is geriatric, an old man that is ready to die carrying around on a palette. The Old Testament died in Paul’s lifetime. He lived to see it pass away. In 70 AD the temple worship was destroyed. All scripture is given by inspiration of God. No question about that, but that same Timothy book said rightly divide those scriptures, which means to lay them out under order. You need to know the order. God doesn’t change, but his methods change. He is no longer saving us the way he saved us under the old law, which is by promissory faith. Therefore, the old law, which was incomplete, which passed away, was superceded by the new and God’s method changed. He said I spoke to you in times past through the law of the prophets, but now I speak to you through my Son. He is able to do that.  Is there anybody here that doesn’t have a bellybutton? Anybody? Does everybody have a bellybutton? I thought you all would not raise your hands. Did Adam and Eve have bellybuttons? Does anybody know? Adam was born from the dust and Eve was born from his side. There was really no need for a navel cord, is that not true? If they had bellybuttons, they would have just been for decoration purposes because they didn’t have to have a bellybutton. Now God has changed because since Adam and Eve, everybody has a bellybutton I am sure. Because procreation means that God created the first and then everything reproduces after its time. Now he could create you without a bellybutton if he wanted to, I’m sure, but he is not going to and God is not going to save anybody according to the old law anymore either. God is sovereign, but he can change his program.


JOHN: Question for Mr. Doughty. Would you elaborate on your statement that we don’t have a God-centered religion. Include in your response your comment that liberals and humanists want a God-centered society. Perhaps you meant a man-centered society. You had made the statement that liberals and humanists want a God-centered society.


CHARLES: Jesus said, “You call me Lord, Lord, and yet you don’t do a thing I say to do”. He said that in the gospels and that was back under the Old Testament. People who have a God-centered religion have a tendency to be humanistic. They say they won’t do this, but they deregulate Christ as to the equal of God on earth. Now, the Godhead can change. In other words, God the Father has given all authority to God the Son and he will reign under he puts all enemies under his feet. That arrangement God has perfectly accepted. I don’t believe a Calvinist or a Jew accepts that. I don’t believe he thinks that Christ is the head of all things. That is why the name of Christ doesn’t mean anything. To a member of the Church of Christ, the name of Christ means everything. You can see Christ everywhere around here because we believe he is our Lord and Savior. He is our King, he is the head of all things, he is above all things. God has delighted to put all things under his feet, has highly exalted his name, given him a name above every name on heaven and earth. We really believe the Calvinist has a less love for Jesus Christ, he won’t admit that. In fact, Andrew won’t admit that, but I believe down in their theological thinking, it reduces Christ to a level of a prophet almost like a Muslim does, in their mindset now. They won’t say that. They will say he is a savior, he is the Lord, but in their mindset because they don’t even think a name is important. Brother Sandelin even mentioned that, that nomenclature is not important. I read one of his Chalcedon reports that the name is not important and yet I believe the name of Christ is important. Even in the Old Testament, Yawaeh God’s name was to be put upon the altar. That was a law. Everywhere you worshiped you had to have Yawaeh God’s name stamped there. I believe the name of Christ should be stamped everywhere we worship even today that heaven and earth will be exalted by that name and there is no name above that name. When Christ comes, now he will relinquish and surrender all authority back to God the Father, I Corinthians 15 says, but right now we are in Christ. They are all equal, all three are equal, but we are in Christ.




ANDREW: I want to make very clear to you and especially to those of you listening on tape that I affirm wholeheartedly the orthodox view of the Trinity, the Christian view of the Trinity I believe the bible sets forth. I also want to make clear that I think that Chuck has come dangerously close to stepping over the line into embracing antitrinitarianism. He may want to dispute that point. We believe Jesus Christ is not exalted wrong, just the opposite. We believe he is a king today. We believe he is ruling today. We believe he is so strong that he can save sinners. Chuck doesn’t believe he is so strong he can save sinners. He is only strong enough to make them savable. No, Calvinists have a very, very high view of Jesus Christ and do take the name of Jesus very, very seriously indeed. I want to say again, we do hold to the Christian view of the Trinity. I believe it was effectively hammered out at the Council of Nicaea and later on some of the councils, which are not substitute for the word of God, which we believe are accurate summaries of what the word of God teaches on those points. You are going to go really wrong if you go wrong on the doctrine of God. It is going to lead everything else astray. Your soteriology is going to be bad, your ecclesiology is going to be bad, your eschatology is going to be bad, your demonology is going to be bad, your satanology is going to be bad, your (hermarteology ?) is going be bad, it is all going to be bad if you are wrong on the doctrine of God. I will stop there.


John: Question for Mr. Sandelin. Is baptism a part of the predestined plan of salvation that God has ordained. Explain John 3:5, I Peter 3:21, I John 5:7 and Romans 6.


Andrew: Unlike some people, I do interpret, some Calvinists would not agree with me on this, I am inclined to believe that John 3:5 the water is, I am not certain, but it is probably referring to baptism, though many people would misunderstand that and I won’t go into that. The question is “Is baptism part of the predestined plan of God that God has ordained”. I am sorry, predestined plan of salvation that God has ordained. Certainly, those who are truly saved should be baptized. Can one go to heaven without baptism? I think so. In fact, I know so. Notice in I Corinthians, and I wanted to get to this earlier, and now is a good time. The question brought it up. I Corinthians 1 I believe if I am not mistaken. I Corinthians 1:16, 17. Paul is speaking, “(I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Besides, I know not whether I baptized any one else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel”. Notice there is a clear distinction there between baptism and the preaching of the gospel, but I am not downplaying the importance of baptism. Those who are truly converted need to be baptized and I believe that covenant infants need to be baptized, which is another issue. These other texts are standard texts used by baptism or regenerationists, or many of them are and if we had time, we could go into those, but we don’t have time right now, maybe we could do it some other time.




John: Is baptism a part of the predestined plan of salvation that God has ordained. Explain John 3:5, I Peter 3:21, I John 5:7 and Romans 6.


CHARLES: Hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, being baptized, being faithful unto the Lord is all part of the predestined plan of God. It is our cooperating with God and God gave these things as gifts to us. Everything in the New Testament is a gift. It is service, not works. The works of the law does not save us, nor are we saved by works of self-righteousness to be in covenant with Jesus Christ. The I Corinthians 1 passage is not talking about debunking baptism. Paul baptized. In fact, we know he baptized and he was baptized. He said as many of us as were baptized were baptized into the death of Christ. So Paul includes himself among the numbers in Romans 6:1,2 who were baptized into Christ. What he is saying here is that I don’t want you to think that you were baptized in my name because if Paul had baptized you, you got the impression that Paul was some big deal. He said I am glad I didn’t baptize you because you would have gotten the impression that because I baptized that was something special. You will not find any record in the book of Acts of anybody being saved who did not obey the gospel. The book of Acts, by the way, is the book of conversion and the history of the first church.


JOHN: Question for Mr. Doughty. What is the standard of Christian morality/ethics? Reformed Calvinists believe that the standard is God’s law and the moral duties of God’s law remain the same from age to age. If this is not the case, why does Peter quote Leviticus 11:44 calling Christians to the exact same moral standard as Old Testament Israel “Be holy as I am holy”, I Peter 1:15,16?


CHARLES: The law that was written in their hearts is the law of the Spirit of Life, which is in Christ Jesus, it is not the old law. The law of the Spirit of Life, which is in Christ Jesus, loves the fulfillment of the law. Therefore, if you have love, you fulfill the whole love. The law that is written in our heart is according to Romans 7, the law of the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ. The New Testament quotes the Old Testament many times as far as moral character is concerned, but when we talk about the holiness of God, “be Ye holy as God is holy”, we are talking about a general tenet of God from the very beginning of time. God has always been holy and that has nothing to do with Old or New Testament. That is an overriding feature of God. We understand God in his sovereignty and holiness from reading the whole bible. As I say, all scripture is inspired of God. That has no bearing at all, the holiness of God has no bearing at all. It is that God has changed his testament. He has rendered old and void the old testament. He has annulled the old and replaced it with the new. It was something God had intended to do from the very beginning of time. Amos, Jeremiah, all of this a prophet like unto Moses would come into place. So holiness has not bearing on the change of the law. Holiness, in fact is the whole law. In fact, the word holiness is one of God’s names. Sidkenu and makadesh. These are righteousness, makadesh is God’s holiness and that is God’s name. I, Lord your God am holy. In fact, the separation of the Jews by their Levitical law, there ceremonial laws was to make them holy, but the New Testament also makes us holy. He said you are a generation of holy people. In fact, we have more reason to be holy in the New Testament than they did in the Old Testament because we have the holy example of Jesus Christ.


ANDREW: That was a circuitous way of saying that he is not sure what the content of the Old Testament is, or what the law is. We know. Hebrews 8:10 quoting Jeremiah “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds….”. He says we will have the law of the spirit of Christ, good. Where would we find it? Where would you find it? You say, well it is just sort of, kind of comes down and sort of comes in your brain somehow. No, we know, it’s in the bible, the sacred scriptures. I do agree with one point, and I want to make sure he said this, that holiness is the whole law. Properly understood, I agree with that. The Old Testament law and the New Testament law are a perfect transcription of the character of God. That is why it can never pass away. If the law were to pass away, this transcription of God’s character, then God could pass away. The question again we’ve got to come back to again is the one Ristruni asked in 1958, by what standard? By what standard?  You say, well the spirit of Christ. Fine! Where is the spirit of the Christ? Where do we find it, where can we read it? It is here in the sacred scriptures.


JOHN: Mr. Sandelin, three-part question. 1) How do you personally gain forgiveness for your sin? 2) Where and when do you contact the blood? 3) If predestined, why be baptized. The theory means no choice, it can’t be changed.


ANDREW: How do you personally gain forgiveness of your sin as a Christian. I John 1:9 tells us if we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and I think that is quite clear, I John 1:9. I presume you are talking about believers?  Where and when do you contact blood? I am in contact right now, it is running through my veins, but I presume what you are talking about is the blood of Jesus Christ, which is often a metonym for his death. When the spirit of God regenerates you, you are also justified. You believe and in that entire complex of events, which happens instantaneously, you are made a believer and Christ’s blood cleanses all of your sin. We could get into extensive soteriological arguments on that, but that is the answer. If predestined, why be baptized. The theory means no choice, can’t be changed. We don’t understand how that God predestines and the man has choice. The fact that you don’t understand that doesn’t mean that the bible doesn’t teach it. Man certainly is a free being. He has free choice within the plan of God. You say, but yea, I can’t understand that and it is not common sense. It may not be common sense, but it is God sense. This is where we have to submit to the word of God and say, you know what? There is a mystery in the faith that I can’t understand, but if we are rationalists, then we think we have to get our entire hand all of God’s revelation. If we can’t understand it, well I am sorry. We have to submit ourselves humbly before the law of God and affirm both predestination and the commands of God and that history does, indeed, have meaning.


JOHN: I will repeat the question. 1) How do you personally gain forgiveness for your sin? 2) Where and when do you contact the blood? 3) If predestined, why be baptized. The theory means no choice, it can’t be changed.


CHARLES: You are not a true Calvinist if you admit freewill. I have a statement of all Calvinists here, and none of them will admit freewill. The rank Calvinists, hyper Calvinists, but I John 1:9, again. You violated your own hermeneutics, brother Andrew because you were complaining in one of your Chalcedon reports that we should not apply Revelation 3, I stand at the door and knock, as to the salvation passage. It is true. We should never apply Revelation; I stand at the door and knock, as a salvation passage, because that is written to Christian. That is a horrible approach to get people saved. God is knocking on Christian’s doors to come back in, the backsliders to come back to him. I John 1:9 is again a hermeneutic, it is not applied to sinners. There is no way in the world that you can apply that to an alien sinner. I John was written to Christians, little children he called them, seven times he called them little children, so we are going to have to follow the laws of hermeneutics. I will not allow a man to violate the laws of hermeneutics in discussion. You play Scrabble; you have to have a dictionary. As far as the blood of Christ, baptism is into the death of Christ. Belief no where puts you into the death of Christ. Repentance no where puts you into the death of Christ. Confession no where puts you into the death of Christ. The act, whereby you identify with Jesus’ bloody death at Calvary is when you enter into the watery grave of baptism. That is why it is the blood that saves you. It is not water regeneration; it is being washed in the blood of Jesus Christ. That is why it is called a leuo, washing, which means the washing of the whole body, and in that act, God accounts you as righteous he imputes to you the righteousness of his son’s death. You have no contact with the death of Christ if you are not baptized into his death. No death, no blood. You have no record.


JOHN: Mr. Doughty – Since you do not believe in predestination, how do you respond to Ephesians 1:4,5 and Romans 8:29,30, which speak of that and John 15:16, which claim that we do not choose God, he chose us?


CHARLES: I have 15 pages on predestination. Pro-horidzo is a word for predestination. It means to map out boundaries in advance and that is where we get our word horizon, by the way. Back in those days they would map out all the land to this horizon, which was usually a mountain. Oridzo means mountain. Predestination is a history of God’s salvation, purpose and plan. Yes, I believe in predestination. I don’t have a God that doesn’t know what is going to happen, but he mapped out these boundary lines. Jacob and Esau were in those boundary lines. Pharaoh was in those boundary lines. In fact, Pharaoh hardened his own heart the bible says, but God gave the conditions whereby Pharaoh could harden his heart. It says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God tested Pharaoh ten times to give him a chance in his predestined plan and Pharaoh rejected. God also tested in the wilderness his own people ten times. He said, “These ten times you have tempted me”. How can a man tempt God if he is sovereign? Well, they did. They tempted God and God finally let their carcasses die in the wilderness. That was all part of God’s predestined plan, to get the seed of the woman. Predestination is simply God’s program to get the seed to the world. In the seed, not seeds, but Jesus only Galatians says, Christ, the world will be blessed in Christ. Not in God the Father, not in God the son, all three are equal. I am not antitrinitarian. If I were, I hope you wouldn’t treat me like Calvin treated Servertius you would behead me or have me burned at the stake. I do believe in the Godhead. I call it by a bible name; I don’t call it Trinity. The Godhead is three persons in one, but God is delighted in the son, salvation should come and God in the seed, Christ. That seed was the God-man, Christ. That predestined plan came down. You are in that plan but you have to hear the seed. The seed is the word of God, by the way. When he talked about see, he was not just talking about the messianic seed of Abraham, the seed of Eve. That predestined plan was to get that seed before you, you hear it. When you operate on faith, you are predestined to be saved in that seed. When you do not operate on faith, you are predestined to be lost in that seed. That is what Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Esau, that is what it is all about.


JOHN: I will repeat the question. Since you do not believe in predestination, how do you respond to Ephesians 1:4,5 and Romans 8:29,30, which speak of that and John 15:16, which claim that we do not choose God, he chose us?


ANDREW: Yes, thanks John. Of course the import of the question is correct. Those verses do teach predestination and I have a Calvinistic interpretation of them. By the way, I wanted to mention I John 1:9 does refer to Christians and I acknowledge that point, so there is no hermeneutical difference there, so I don’t know why we need to drag in the comments about different hermeneutical systems. I would recommend, however, your reading if you want to examine this issue of using Greek and Hebrew words separately, and I notice that Chuck does that quite a bit. That can be very dangerously apart from their context. Yet James bars but the semantics of biblical language. The scholars are very careful when they do that. We have to see the entire range of the semantical argument, not just pick one word here and one word there. Calvin, by the way, did not murder many people, though he sadly consented to the murder or execution of Servertius. We talked about free will. How much time do I have? (John: About a minute). How many of you here love liver, you just love it? How many of you here despise it? I mean you just despise it? If you were hungry and I came to you with some liver and I said you have a free choice, you have free will and you despise liver. You have a free choice, you have a free will, eat it. “But I don’t like it. I would rather eat dirt than liver, it makes me sick”. You do have free will over your choice about eating the liver. You don’t have free will over your choice about whether you like the liver, and that is the issue. People that are dead in trespasses and sins, they don’t like the gospel, they are dead, they hate the gospel. They need the illumination of the Spirit of God. When free will is described that way, yes, every Calvinist affirms free will. Certainly, free choice in the way that I described it. The issue is the desire, and the desire shapes the will. Man’s affections shape his will. The only free will being in the universe with absolutely unconditioned free will is the sovereign God.


JOHN: To Mr. Sandelin. If the bible is the complete word of God, why do you need the Westminster Confession of Faith as a companion or manual to understanding God’s word?


ANDREW: It is not a manual. That is a good question, a very fair question. Why does Chuck need books? Why does he read books? I can tell he has read a few books. Why does he need them as a companion or a manual to the word of God? He is going to say, “Oh, no, no, no, they are not companions or manuals. They are just to help me understand the word of God. Well, that is something like the Westminster Confession is. It is not inspired, it is not infallible, but we believe it is a good summary. Credalism is an inescapable concept. Every church is credal. You say, “Our church is not credal”. Of course it is. Chuck gets up and preaches on Sunday and guess what? He is preaching basically a creed. Yea, but he says he can be mistaken. Of course he can be mistaken. We say the Westminster Confession can be mistaken. Credalism and confessionalism are inescapable concepts. Every church is credal. Every church is credal. You say, “Nope, we believe only the word of God”. So do you allow anybody that believes the bible to join your church? Yep, anybody that believes the bible. What if they don’t believe in baptism? Could they still join your church? What if they hate God? You say, “Well, nobody who believes the bible would do that”. Ah, you are now imposing a creed. Credalism, of course, is inescapable. People can deny it, but it is just naiveté. They just don’t understand. I’ll stop there.


CHARLES: I heard the question. When I was ordained in the ministry of Jesus Christ and when I ordain people and when Christian Kingdom College students are ordained, we ask them if they believe in the doctrine of the apostles and the prophets and Jesus Christ and will they faithfully deliver and proclaim that message. That is binding. We are the only credalist church I believe in the world. There may be another group, but we are the only credalist people. We are absolute New Covenant Christians and we don’t know of any other Christianity other than New Covenant. When you become a minister of a denomination, they ask you to believe the bible plus would you subscribe to our confession of faith, and once they make that binding that to me undercuts and almost blasphemes the holy word. The holy word is all we need as our safe guide. I can be mistaken, I’m not infallible, but thank God, his word is. That is why you need to search the scriptures and prove whether I am telling you the truth or not like the Beroeans did in Acts 17.


JOHN: Please respond, question to Mr. Doughty. Please respond. When you put Colossians 2:12,13 along side Ephesians 2:8,9, we find that we are saved by grace through faith in baptism.


CHARLES: Salvation is a gift of God. I already said that. You see, when we talk about the faith once and for all delivered to the saints, when we talk about the law of the spirit of Jesus Christ, that is an abbreviated statement. When it says contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints, not to the Old Testament Jew, but to the saints, the sanctified ones in Christ, that is an abbreviated statement. The faith, it is also called grace, is an abbreviated statement for all that we have in this New Testament. The whole system is metonymized, there is another word in hermeneutics, synecdoche. It means you receive all of what Christ and his apostles gave to you. Therefore, it is all classified under the aspect of grace. Every teaching of the New Testament is grace. It is not works, it is not burdensome. All the commandments, seven times John said keep the commandments in I John, keep the commandments, keep the commandments, and keep the commandments. The remnant in Revelation 12 are those who keep his commandments. Those are not the commandments of God, they are commandments of Christ. I John made it very clear that now the commandments of God are the commandments of Christ and wrapped up, epitomized under the heading and the category of all of that, the grace of God comes to us. Baptism is a part of it, repentance, the fact that we have the dignity of making the choice to repent is a beautiful predestined thing. The fact that we have the dignity of choice to confess Christ is a beautiful predestinated thing. When we talk about free choice, remember we are created in the image of God, is that not true? Therefore, if God chooses, we choose. We are different from animals. Animals are robots. You talk about predestined, I see that in the animal world. My dog acts like a dog, acts like a dog all the time. He is just as predictable as you can get. He has absolutely no choice at all. Man in the image of God has a choice.


ANDREW:  I didn’t hear it too well. When you put Colossians 2:12,13 along side Ephesians 2:8,9, we find that we are saved by grace through faith in baptism. 2:12,13 buried with him in baptism, risen through the faith of the operation of God. Some of course claim that that is, and I am sure Chuck has heard this, spiritual baptism. I do not take that out. I want to make that very clear. “Being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses”. That is why we believe that baptism for one thing is the sign and seal of the covenant of grace. It is an external sign of the actual regeneration in the heart of man and it is vital, so I agree with that. I don’t spiritualize that passage, spiritualize as some people do. I wanted to mention also very quickly, Chuck answered about being a credalist church. You noticed what he answered, of course, was a creed. He says not the commandments, we don’t follow the commandments of God, but of Christ. I would like to know if he believes Jesus Christ is God. If he believes Jesus Christ is God, then the commandments of God are the commandments of Christ, whereas logic and language have no meaning.


CHARLES: I agree with what you say. When I say commandments of Christ, I am talking about commandments of God and the commandments of God are commandments of Christ.


JOHN: Next question, Mr. Sandelin. I Corinthians 1:21 says “….it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe”. Based on your belief and doctrine, why do you bother to preach, particularly considering your statement that there is no part man can play in salvation?


ANDREW: Good point. Did you read – what was the text again that was sited?


JOHN: I Corinthians 1:21 says “….it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe”. Based on your belief and doctrine, why do you bother to preach, particularly considering your statement that there is no part man can play in salvation?


ANDREW: Because God doesn’t only predestinate men, God also predestinates the means. A lot of people don’t think about that, do they? They have a rationalistic understanding of predestination rather than an organic understanding of predestination. God is indeed the sovereign God. He declares the end from the beginning. There is a whole group of text that I jumped over that I wish I could show you. I mean the bible makes that very clear. We don’t understand how men also can be a volitional being with choice if we have a predestinating God. The fact that we don’t understand it doesn’t mean that it is not true. Only if we have a rationalistic understanding of the word of God to try to make the word of God fit into our little finite minds. Only if we do that do we think there is a contradiction.  Jesus Christ is both God and he is also man. How could God be walking around in human form? I don’t understand that, you don’t understand it either by the way. If you try to explain it, you are going to go into heresy, but it is true. He is both God and he is both man. I don’t understand it, but it is true. We have to affirm both of these things equally. We are not rationalists, we are Christians.


JOHN: I Corinthians 1:21 says “….it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe”. Based on your belief and doctrine, why do you bother to preach, particularly considering your statement that there is no part man can play in salvation?


CHARLES: A Hyper-Calvinist doesn’t believe in preaching. A Hyper-Calvinist doesn’t believe in the Great Commission. He believes God is going to save people regardless. He predestines them. You have to agree with that brother Andrew. He agrees with me. They don’t even believe that you should preach. However, in keeping with the thought of predestination in the bible, it is not mine, is that the seed, God predestined to get the seed. It was a mystery, a kept secret from the foundation of the world, that the Jew and Gentile would both be converted by the hearing of the same gospel. The Law of Moses was basically for the Jew, but the gospel for all nations. This predestination of this seed came down from the seed of the woman and Satan waged war against the seed of the woman all through the Old Testament. In Revelation 12, we see the woman pregnant with a man-child trying to bring the man-child to the earth, and Satan standing over, the red dragon, trying to devour the man-child as soon as he was born. This was the culmination of this war that had gone on, and God predestined the seed and Satan wanted to stop that seed. That is why he wanted to get Esau – God didn’t want Esau to be the messianic line. Abimelech – God didn’t want Abimelech to impregnate Sarah, so he had to predestine this whole thing to get the seed down. All of this has to do, these are the highlights by the way, of the war between the seed of the woman and the seed of the dragon. Then when Christ came and the apostles executed his estate. Thank God the plan was over. Now we have the seed. The predestined seed is here and in that seed you’re saved or you’re lost. That is as simple as you can see it. That is what it is talking about in the book of Romans when it talks about God’s method. The Jews said we don’t want this method because there are a thousand Gentiles being saved for every one Jew. We don’t like this method. The Father wanted this seed to come to you Jews, and you Jews are going to be saved the same way the Gentiles are. You are going to obey the seed. Hear the word, believe the word and obey the word and you are predestined.


JOHN: Time and I am informed that it is the end of the question and answers. So I would like to have a round of applause for both men.e


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